Talk:Xai'athi/3

Taking a Second Look at the Xai'athi
Now first let me state that I am a serious fan of these guys. I think that the premise is imaginative and well thought out. Not to mention the detail you have put into these articles is amazing Viva. However, as a fan I have to point out that there seem to be some things that don't quite fit with the setting, either due to canon issues or simply the aesthetic. So I have some suggestions for changes that I feel would improve the overall quality of these guys. I will break down the talking points of my suggestions into sections so that you aand the rest of the community can address them in an organized manner. I llok forward to how you respond to my suggestions Viva. I also hope that those other Users on the site who are fans of your work will contribute.

Supahbadmarine 02:07, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Technology
One of my biggest concerns about the current Xai'athi is their incredibly advanced technology. Now first of all I would like to point out that I don't have any problem with the Xai'athi being very advanced. In fact I feel it would ruin the aesthetic of the premise if we dumbed them down too much, but the current Xai'athi are WAY too advanced. They utilize technology that even the Eldar don't have access to despite being supposedly less advanced than the Eldar. Frankly I think their level of technological progress rivals the Necrons, which we know is not canon friendly. I think that one of the changes that should be instituted is that their technology should be closer to that of the rest of humanity than it is to the Eldar's. I am well aware that the Eldar's technology played a part in their progress Viva, and I will address that in the Xeno Inclusion section.

Another thing that I feel bears mentioning regarding their technology is their Node Drive. It is the method by which the Xai'athi travel at faster than light speeds. I think it is a method of transportation that is a little too convenient. First of all it is much faster than Warp Travel that is used by the Imperium. I can fully accept this as the Xai'athi are supposed to be more advanced than the Imperium to begin with. However while it is not quite as fast as webway travel it does come close, and the really irksome thing is that it has no serious drawbacks. I feel that such a perfect method for space Travel is too big an advantage. If I may suggest something, perhaps the Xai'athi should utilize Warp Travel like the Imperium does. However being that they are more advanced they could be better at it. They could have mastered it to the point where they can travel many times faster than the Imperium ships, and with a higher degree of safety.

Finally i feel the need to address the way the Xai'athi problem solve. It seems to me that they have come up with an effective countermeasure for nearly all of the canon threats through sheer merit of their technology. Now I get that they are highly advanced Viva, but i feel that if they are so advanced that they can reduce can elements to minor threats then they are advanced in a way that is overpowered. Luckily you have done a good job of addressing this particular issue, so it is only a minor talking point.

Supahbadmarine 02:07, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Xeno Inclusion
I strongly feel that we have to address the Xai'athi's attitude toward Xenos. Now I get what you were going for with this Viva. I hardly mind that the Xai'athi are willing to work with Xeno Species. In fact I wish that the Imperium would be just a little bit more open minded about it, but i also feel that the Federation has become some sort of Intragalactic community that i would expect to find in Star Wars. Now I like Star Wars mind you, but i feel like everybody getting along and working together just does not fit 40k. The fact that the Solaris Federation has become some sort of sanctuary for all the mistreated and misunderstood species in the galaxy makes my head hurt.

For one i think it is ridiculous that all of these species are willing to live under the same roof with one another. Forget the Imperium, everybody in this setting is at everybody else's throat. prejudice between Xeno Species would arise. It further does not help that Xenos are effectively second class citezens. How can the Federation be their paradice if they have to cater to the vanity of the Xai'athi. More than that it just feels wrong. Of course that last bit is just my personal sense of aestheitics. I can't help it. Interracial empire where everybody just genuinly works for good make me want to puke. At least the Tau have that obnoxious sense of self-righteous arrogance that makes them flatten anybody that doesn't agree with them.

I also don't like the fact that when the Xai'athi find species that they can't get to peacefully join them they can just force them to be military force, or make them into genetic slaves and incorperate them. The whole deal feels like your saying " Hey! I'll just take everybody that isn't an unsalvagable jerk, and make them part of my empire!".I think that the Xai'athi need a much more casual approach to Xenos. First of all I do believe that they should be less Xenophobic than the Imperium, but i don't think that they should just include everybody. In stead they could simply have trade aggreements or treaties with a number of Species. Instead of having big populations of Xenos they could have small demograghics of these allied Xenos living in the Federation as traders or diplomats.

The next thing that I wish to address is their relationship with the Eldar. I feel that it is way too intimate. First of all the fact that the Federation had a war with the Eldar Empire and were not crushed, or at least quaranteened blows my mind. If you are a major superpower, and a force you send to beat some obscure threat gets taken out you don't just say oh well. You raise up a bigger army and flatten what could become a threat to your power. The Eldar are highly intelligent, and having made contact with the Xai'athi they would not simply look at them as a pest.

I also think that the highly intimate relationship was what formed the foundation for much of the Xai'athi's over the top technology, and abilities. The Xai'athi having access to Pre-Fall Eldar tech has become a springboard that has allowed you to take their tech way too far. I believe that the relationship with the Eldar needs to be much more casual. First of all I think that the overall population of the Eldar within the Federation should be reduced. The Eldar Empire should have won the war, and extracted their people from the Xai'athi with the exception of some of the Eldar that became attached to the Federations. Like Binadamu's wife for example. Furthermore i think that during the time of the Eldar Empire the expansion of the Solaris Federation should have been ruthlessly arrested by the Eldar, kepping them from getting any bigger until the fall. During this time they would have traded tidbits of their technology to the Xai'athi, and certainly nothing substantial. This would allow us to realistically reduce the level of technology that the Xai'athi possess.

Supahbadmarine 02:07, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Getting the the Xai'athi into the Thick of It.
Now this is one of the areas where you have been making great strides Viva. Not long ago the Solaris Federation was this untouchable empire on the edge of the galaxy that nobody could realistically attack. Now they have attacks by most major factions, and their rim world s are just as vulnerable as the rest of the galaxy. Bravo for a good change of the Xai'athi's character Viva. However I feel that can and should take this a little further in order to properly plunge the Xai'athi into the major happenings of the setting. On this I feel two changes might help.

First i think that you should remove the part about the Xai'athi destroying all of the Webway Gates into their area of space. i feel this is way too big of an advantage over the Eldar, and one that they would never allow the Xai'athi to obtain. Not to mention the fact that the kordanians have free access to the Webway while the Eldar can barely get into the Federations territory seems incredibly unbalanced. That plot development makes Eldar and Dark Eldar involvment in the Federations doings incredibly limited.

The second idea I have come up with involves the position of the Federation in general. Right now the Federation is situated in an area of space that is beyond the astronomicon for the most part, and is defined by numerous astrological and Warp anomalies that makes Imperial foray into their space almost impossible, and the same goes for other factions. Up until recently it made it so that the Xai'athi could destroy any force luckyenough to get through these natural defenses, while allowing them to attack Imperial Space almost with impunity. That is definately overpowered, but i understand why you did it. It is difficult if not impossible to have a human civilization while the Imperium exists because if they encounter the Imperium will crush it, and nobody can truly withstand the Imperium forever. You had to find a way to dter Imperial aggression, and this is what you came up with. However i believe I came up with a solution that will allow you to more effectively have the Xai'athi take part in the galaxy without them being destroyed by the Imperium.

Instead of them having to be way out there you move the area of their empire a little closer to the action, and within the Astronomicon. The first thing that stops the Imperium is a Warp Storm that pretty much barred the Imperium's way from entering that area of Space. naturally the warp Storm abates and the Xai'athi re-emerge on the galactic scene. This of course prompts the Imperium to launch a crusade. However they did not expect the Xai'athi to be as formidable as they are, and lose. now as to why they don't just send crusade after crusade and crush the Federation. If you were to take this idea, then the area that the Xai'athi inhabit is peppered with hostile Xenos, and heretics. Instead of being secure it would be an extremely dangerous are of space. The Imperium would be unable to launch an attack on the Federation without getting into a fight with every threat in the area. In fact if the Imperium were to destroy the Federation the area would furhter destablize and become more hellish. Still the Imperium would occsionally try to take out the Federation and of course they would have constant skirmishes along their border. This would also help to explain why the rim worlds are always struggling to keep the piece.

Supahbadmarine 02:07, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Base Abilities
The last hing i want to address are their base attributes. In many ways the Xai'athi are just too powerful even without factoring in their advanced tech. I just can't accept on a mental an emotional level that the Xai'athi are justr naturally better than the Space Marines. The Space Marines were designed by the Emperor himself using superior Genetic material. Furthermore they were created and are trained just for the sake of war. They are super soldiers. Yet the Xai'athi are supposedly just born with physical and mental capabilities that surpass them. There are only about one million Astartes at any one point in time, and yet there are trillions of Xai'athi and they are all just better than them. I just can't accept it on an intellectual level.

On that note I feel like some of the Xai'athi Breeds have some seriously overpowered abilities. Honestly, sometimes I read the descriptions, and I feel like I should be reading a X-Men comic book instead of an article based in 40k. Like the fact that they can all shapeshift, and create deadly crystal weapons from every part of their body. Though it may very well be that you just haven't got around to changing it yet.

I also think that the reporduction needs to be looked at. With all of the crazy advantages that the Xai'athi possess it does not seem right that they should be able to reproduce at increased speeds as well. The fact that they reproduce and mature at sucxh an accelrated rate gives them an unfair numerical advantage against every race except for the Orks and the Tyranids. Furthermore the fact that they can choose to mate with a Xeno species and force the child to be a pure Xai'athi means that they can effectively breed an entire species to death if they feel like it. Something that would deter a friendly relationship with the Eldar and many other species.

Finally there is Binadamu and the Amara. You have been very quick to compare them to the Emperor and his Primarchs. You have outright stated that the Amara surpass the Primarchs in just about every fashion, something that does not quite sit well with me. Furthermore you are constantly remarking about how Binadamu has succeeded where the great Emperor has failed. I can't help but feel that the way you have portrayed them has been somewhat dismissive or even disrespectful towards important canon elements.

Supahbadmarine 02:07, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

That is all I have got for now. Man! That took some energy. Supahbadmarine 02:07, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, where to begin.

Technology
The Xai'athi's technology will be downgraded, but the Xai will maintain theirs, but only for the fact that they live in complete luxury that the rest of the Federation cannot comprehend. I developed the different travelling methods for each of the breeds to weaken the overall advantage they have concerning travel. The Nodedrive will remain in the arsenal of the Xai, as will their nodegates. I liked the boom-drive I created for the Xai'athi as the first type of warp technology they developed themselves. It a solid story in my opinion, and didn't travel into the realm of overpowerment the Xai'athi had. As for the Eldar technology, it was responsible for most of the Xai'athi's progress and power. The Xai'athi based some of their tech off of it, like the Roho Web and Nodegate.

Xeno Inclusion
I'm trying the lower the xeno's place in the Federation to the point where the Xai'athi use them as slave armies. The Federation allows certain species to remain in their space, but they of course have to serve as soldiers in the Federation's armies. It pretty much live free as a slave soldier, or die in an Exterminatus. As for the Eldar, I was considering a story in which Binadamu shows up in the Eldar Empire, and the war ends. It was perhaps a bargin in which the Eldar halted their next invasion, and they get to kill the abomination leading the Xai'athi. It's conclusion was suppose to remain a mystery to the Xai'athi.

As for the Eldar, these were not from the Eldar Empire proper, but born and rised in the Federation, desendant of those who decided to join the Xai'athi instead of die like those who tried to destroy it in it's infancy. The Eldar in Solaris would not identify with the Eldar of their empire, and certainly would not support any plans to relocate to a foreign empire. The Xai'athi tech of course came as a result of their relationship. It's not so much a springboard than it is a clever why to get the Eldar into the Federation. The size of the xeno populations in Solaris is small, numbering in the billions accounting for all of the sheltered species. The Eldar however, number far more, but that is another story.

Getting the the Xai'athi into the Thick of It
I've considered moving the Xai'athi closer to the Imperium, but I was trying to emphize the reasons for they were so far from everyone else. They had just fled their homeworld, and had no plans of running into any other species that had plans of destroying them like the Orks had tried to do. Because of their foreplanning, they managed to colonize a region of the galaxy far from any of the known powers at that time. The Eldar Empire was far in the galactic north, and had no knowledge of the Xai'athi's empire until far later in their history. Considering the dangers posed by the Eldar, the Xai'athi did the only logical thing at the time, destroy all webway gates in their space. The dangers posed by the gates far outweighted any rewards from keeping it. Plus, the Xai'athi had just created the nodedrives, and had no need for the gates. While the nodedrives were far deadly do to their being prone implosions, they were far better than allowing an advanced empire of space elves from jacking them up.

Base Abilities
I'm currently downgrading the Xai'athi powers. Their gestation rate will be lengthen slightly, and their nanite abilities will also be downgraded. However, you must remember that the Emperor had to create the Astartes overnight using inferior technology, and only had a few decades to do use (probably more considering the beginning of the Age of Strife. Binadamu was using Eldar technology, and had millennia to develop and refine the Xai'athi's powers. Plus, when considering Binadamu's plans to create the perfect race in contrast to the Emperor's plans for the perfect warrior. A Xai'athi can out-think, outsmart, and outrun a Space Marine. While not suited for combat, they could very well become the warrior needed to fight an inferior species.

On the topic of the Amara, the Emperor had a huge ego. He used forbidden technology that led to the quick corruption of half of the Primarchs, and the egos of the Primarchs themselves, believing that they were superior to all others due to their father being the Emperor, made it easy for Chaos to corrupt them. I respect the Primarchs, but the Amara had more life experience, combat experience, and more diverse skills than the Primarchs. Binadamu had been developing new ways to create better people, and thus, his children had become the very thing he had been working towards. Their skills came as a result of the time they had to develop them, and the time spent preparing themselves against beings that were themselves the equal of the Primarchs (Greater Daemons and the likes). Binadamu very well suceced where the Emperor had failed. The Emperor never intented to rule an empire, but simply guide it from the shadows. Binadmau's plans were simply better geared towards such goals.

Thank you for your advice. I plan on incorporating some of your ideas, but will continue to strengthen the position of the Xai. As already mentioned, the Xai are the puppetmasters of Solaris. The Eldar are slaves (well, those breed for it), and the xenos are indentured servents, paying off the Federation's good graces toward their species. Vivaporius 03:04, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

OK im finally done with homework. Lets see now, i have to agree with Supa on most cases. Especially about how the Xai'athi have a perfect solution to everything. And internal trouble between breeds and xenos should be included. Plus, twenty primarchs managed to take most of the galaxy, imagine 40 beings that are even more powerful! Way too powerful.

Really I dont think there is much more I can add, Supa nailed everything I could possibly think of.

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 04:44, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Mind you that the Primarchs needed the help of thousand superhuman warriors and millions of Imperial troops. By themselves they would have been killed. Mortarion was almost killed by his fake father. Angron nearly perished in a losing battle. And Vulkan almost fell into the mouth of a volcano. Addition, the Amara are Binadamu natrually born children. They weren't breed for war (Erick for example). And not all became super warriors (Kenfetse is still a politican), while the rest are still children. Vivaporius 14:26, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Now concerning breed strife. I really want to see an Awali-Vashti but I'm restraining myself. There is no way such a thing could or would happen. Having issues between the Xai'athi and xenos is just fine. Vivaporius 14:33, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Then you should probably mention that not all the Amara are insane super-powered rampagers. But still the Amara are overpowered. Cause eighteen of these primarchs (who are apparently weaker) conquered most of the galaxy. And worse, these guys can have kids, so even more killer-children loose in the galaxy. Either tone them down or make Bindamu a better father.

And as more primarchs being weaker. Curze crashed into the core of Nostramo and somehow got out on his own through miles and miles of molten magma! And Sanguinius practically took on the entire Horus Heresy at the Eternity Gate. You know what? We really need some power-scale for the Primarchs.

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 15:34, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Thats up for debate. But my point still stands.

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 15:39, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Which is why Horus wanted Sanganius to be Warmaster. Anyway, Binadamu shall remain the wonderful father he is cause better that way. Also, there is no information on the Amaras' kids or their abilities. So lets leave their kids out of this. Vivaporius 17:23, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

As for tghat power scale, I've been search up and down the internet for one, but hard to find one that isn't biased. Vivaporius 17:26, November 8, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I forget to mention, Baby Angron learned to kill a dozen eldar before he knew how to talk. O_O

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 05:09, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Still doesn't change the fact that when baby Angron grew up, he and army of gladiators were wiped out, and the Emperor (who to was almost choked to death by an Ork), had to take Angron away from the battle against his will to save him, meaning that one of those lowly soldiers could have killed him. Vivaporius 02:28, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Given the same circumstances one of the Amara would have died as well. Supahbadmarine 02:29, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

True. But the Amara, unlike Angron, were better psykers, and had more fighting experience. The Idrissa turned an entire Imperial Guard army on itself, nearly cracked the planet in half, and through a moon at an Imperial fleet. It's not overkill, it's mastery of his powers, and the time spent honing them (though I still think it was a bit much killing that many people out of anger). Vivaporius 02:33, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

At the time they would not have had that fighting experience, nor Psychic mastery to fall back on. Angron would not have been beaten if he had the resources he had as his Legion's Primarch. You are trying to blow up the abilities of the Amara again. Supahbadmarine 02:35, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not blowing anything up. Idrissa did what he needed to do out of necessity. He and his minions came to the planet to grab some artifacts, only to discover the inhabitants betrayed them and destroyed them. Idrissa needed to set an example for other worlds, and did so rather violently. Idrissa is still a powerful psyker, and you don't need to God Emprah as a scale to set a limit on how powerful can be. It's a proven fact. Vivaporius 02:39, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Hey Viva! Hey, about the Ahudi. Saying Space Jews aint cool, at all.

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 02:08, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would have expected such a comment from you. But it's true. In real life and in 40k. No joke. Besides, we got Space Africans (Awali), space Asians (Nokemono and Liulan), space Russians (Zverians), and even space thugs (Kordanians). So why not space Jews? Vivaporius 02:29, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Then wheres the space British, Americans, and Middle Easterns? Haha...no. But when you say "Jew" it tends to be to a negative effect. And what makes them seem jewish anyway?

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 02:44, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Throughout their history, Jews had been persecuted because of their fate (and the fact they killed Jesus). Likewise, the Ahudi are persecuted because of their faith. They wish to worship Binadamu, when he explictly ordered all Xai'athi not to. Thus, the Xai'athi attack them because of their disobedience, and their persecution mirrors that of the Jews.

Also, the Britannian Vashti are the Space Brits, the Xai are in some way the Space Americans (though the people of Navarro are the best example), and the Awali have their share of Space Mid-Easterns (Swahili used the Arabic language before the Brits rolled into East African). So HA! >:D Vivaporius 02:55, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

And remember, the Vashti mirror 19th century Europe. So they've got Space Italians, Germans, Spaniards, and Swedes in their race. Just sayin'. Vivaporius 02:56, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Im just saying that the work "Jew" is usually used negatively and therefore can be taken the wrong way. And when it says "...calls them space jews" it is almost offensive. Do you see what im saying?

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 03:04, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

As is Black appearently. But I'm black and I've never seen anyone get jumpy of the fact. Their Jewish, that's what they are. I see no issue with it. But for the sake of common decency, I shall remove the reference. Vivaporius 03:06, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

I know I may be digging up an old bone, and that you may be changing this article at this very moment, but I still think that the Xai'athi being able to take on and defeat the Imperium is unbelievable to the extreme. It breaks canon into a million pieces, if not for the sole fact that it has already been established that the Imperium is the dominant military force in the galaxy. This is shown in the fact that they rule much of the galaxy, and no race can beat them by themselves, not the Eldar, the Tau or the Black Crusades. So the Xai'athi being able to beat the Imperium is, to be frank, impossible. The Imperium just can't be beaten or even rivalled by a single race or empire.

But then again, this is Fanon, so I suppose it doesn't have to abide by Canon. Hmm. &#91;GN&#93; Interdictor 05:23, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

The Imperium is the dominate mlitary force because of its superoir numbers. Without that, their nothing. The Xai'athi use their superior technology and intel to defeat the Imperium. The Tau couldn't beat the Imperium because their too small. The Orks could fight mankind to a standstill, and even over run them if they were united. The Eldar are too small, but they can't be caught unless they run into the Imperial forces. The Yyranids are eating away at the Imperium, and its only a matter of time before the Eastern Fringe is lost. Chaos took Cadia, their just stuck. The Xai'athi have want none of the others don't. Numbers, technology, and cooperation. They are superior technologically, they have the ability to field large armies, and they don't suffer from the same level of infighting as other races. They are the only other force that can truely stand up to the Imperium. If they did throw all of their forces at the Imperium, using intel they've gather (see the Akili), they could possibly overrun Segmentum Tempestus. It doesn't take a large military to defeat a large opponent. Israel is proof enough of that. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 05:48, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Now pound for pound, the Imperium is superior, but the Xai'athi don't overcpmpensate. For instace, the Akili needs only one agent on a planet to collect all the information it needs. Usingadvanced stealth technology and shape-shifting techiques, an single agent can get all the intel they need. They don't need a massive warship, personal army, or supernatural weapons to get the job done. Additionally, while the Imperial Guard is like a ton of feathers, the Kijeshi is like a man armed with a flame thrower. He can simply burn through that ton of feathers until he runs out of feul, or in the case of the Kijeshi, manpower. For every million Guardsmen, the Kijeshi neshi needs only 250,000 to accoplish the same job. The Xai'athi are capable of fighting long wars, and replacing losses quickly, but they will always be outnumbered the the Imperium. On the flip side, the Imperium cannot counter the superior tech of the Xai'athi, which combined with numbers, allows them to throw their weight around. The Xai'athi cannot conquer the Imperium, but they can certainly defeat it in a straight fight. Whereas the Imperium is a pillow that asorbs all of the attacks, the Xai'athi are a rock, which simply deflects all of the attacks. Its something along those lines really. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 06:02, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry Viva, but the fact remains that if the Imperium were to focus its wrath on the Federation they would be destroyed outright. I get that pound for pound the Federation generally has better troops, but for them to be able to take the Imperium on in a full scale war is NCF. Supahbadmarine 12:27, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

The Damocle Crusade. Third War of Armeggedon. The 13th Black Crusade. The Imperium didn't defeat any of those forces, they just staved off the inevitable. The Tau are still spreading, the Orks just got tired and left, and Abbadon is still of Cadia! If fact, from I remember, doesn't Abbadon control 70% of the surface? Anyway, the Federation is too large for the Imperium of run over. Its got 400 trillion people, who if threathened with genocide, would not lay down like an Imperial citizen. They saw the last wars the Imperium waged against the Federation. So they know what they capable of. The Fedeation can fight the Imperium in a direct conflict. The Orks did it, and even the Tau again. And the beauty of the fact is that the Imperium CAN'T focus directly of Solaris. If they did, the other forces of the galaxy. So the Imperium doing that would be NCF. And those billions of Imperium troops actually mean nothing as it is simply their overall strength, not the number of troops they can actually field. In the codexes and book, the number of Imperial forces in battle are shown as been in the millions. Not the massive sizes that you think. During the Great Crusade, when the Emperor defeated the largest Waaagh!!! Human history, he fielded only four million troops. And that armored battle of Tallarn was only a couple million tanks. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 14:08, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Plus, this point of 40k is known as the Time of Ending for the Imperium. The Imperium is slowly dying, so having yet another worthy opponent is completely canon. And let me remind you that Solaris does not represent the entire Xai'athi species. The Nakala, Kuanguka, and Sankari, have fought the Imperium before (some more than others). If, like the Orks, they unite, which is a very real prospect, that's when the s**t storm begins, and you don't want to be caught in that. The Nakala can field armies of cheap, weak clones, and do so until the enemy runs out of ammo. The Imperium is vast, but if bogged down in a single sector, they will be defeated. The Tyranids did it, and the Imerpial forces resorted to nuking their own city. The Imperium is a paper tiger. It can hurt you if it can redirect it's weight at you. And that is where they fail. Usually, the only way they can get the troops for the war is through a crusade, and they did that, in the Perseus Crusades, with an S. They invaded Solaris six times, and got stomped. While they were fighting in Solaris, the Xai'athi invaded the Imperium, and through Imperium forces out of Solaris, and damaged the supply lines that fed the war effort. The Imperium's size is it's weakness, it can't be everywhere at once, no matter how large it's military is. The Xai'athi can because Solaris is smaller, and has handed defense of certain parts of Solaris to it's constitute members, allowing the central military focus on more important matters. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 14:36, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

I am not talking about them fighting everybody else and the Xai'athi. I am talking about one on one. No single military or government can fight the full might of the Imperium. Also i would appreciate it if you stopped referring to the Imperium as a paper tiger. They are rotting from the inside, and their administrative, and religious branches are lousy with corruption and incompitence, but if there is one thing that the Imperium does well, it's war. This isn't a debate. A worthy opponent is one thing, but a foe that can go mano a mano on with the Imperium is NCF Supahbadmarine 18:10, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

I only used the reference once. And unless the Imperium can actually shift all of that weight onto one enemy, and canonically, they cannot, then the Xai'athi do stand a chance. It isn't NCF, and I do have canon on my side. And I do agree, that the Xai'athi cannot stand against the Imperium only. But in terms of one on one, and without the Imperium's numbers, as is always the case, the Xai'athi could win. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 18:25, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, just looking at my Grey Knights Codex now, I can see a prime example of how the Imperium doesn't need numbers to win wars: at Beroghast, Brother-Captain Arno Trevan and his 2nd Brotherhood took out the entirety of Waaagh! Snappaklaw by themselves. That's around 100 Grey Knights against, I'm assuming, several million Orks. And I'm guessing that most Space Marines Chapters can similar feats, although on a smaller scale. So no, the Imperium's military forces don't need nunbers to win although the Imperial Guard do. Interdictor 02:58, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

And that I don't dispute. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 03:23, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I misinterpreted, but from what I can read what you were getting across was that the Imperium could only win by shifting its weight upon its target - which I assume you mean by the Hammer of the Imperial Guard. This completely leaves out the Space Marines, who do not rely on weight of numbers but rather on the quality of their troops. (If the Xai'athi possessed greater quality than the Space Marines something is wrong here) For the Space Marines, a single company is often enough to finish an entire battle, a Chapter an entire war. What I would like to know is, if the Imperium realised the Xai'athi for the threat they are, and sent their finest warriors to suppress them, what would the outcome be? Interdictor 22:45, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

The Xai'athi do have better quality troops. If you haven't read their history, then you'll know that the Xai'athi have technology that surpasses that from the Dark Ages of Technology. Also, the Xai'athi can call upon large numbers of troops themselves. They have a smaller version of the Space Marines known as the Vikosi Maalum. Their a fourth the size of the Space Marines, but are capable of deliever strikes similar to that od the Astates. The Space Marines were made for war. I get that. But they've been shown to lose many of those wars. The Damocles Crusades have proven that even with the Marines and the IG, the Imperium is outmatched by anyone with better tech. Also, to prove a point, the Imperium's massive army counts for squat, as those same forces are scattered across the galaxy, and rarely have the chance to use those numbers, "if" they get to battle on time. The Imperium had to call off the Damocles Crusade so they could move those troops to fight the Tyranids, proving that they didn't have the troops needed to fight the menace. Also, from what I can remember, didn't five chapters fight the Tau? If so, that proves that a single chapter can't win a war. Now if the Tau and their tech could best the Imperium, why do you think that a much larger, much more advanced one couldn't do the same? Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 23:31, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

First, IMHO, I don't think the Tau actually beat the Imperium. Rather, the Imperium left on the terms of, "Yeah, we beat you, but something else distracted us. If the Tyranids hadn't come along we'd have you on the ropes."

And the Imperium's army always counts for something... Black Crusades only pour from the Eye of Terror once every thousand (or is that hundred? I can't recall) years, which means once the 13th Black Crusade is beaten back, and trust me, it will (Games Workshop has too much money riding on the Imperium right now), the Imperium's enemies will go down by one, at least for a short time. Which means that the large portion the Imperium has devoted to beating back Abaddon can be distributed elsewhere.

Also, what is the one thing all named Space Marine characters all have in common? Like Marneus Calgar, Kaldor Draigo, and Captain Lysander? I'll tell you what - ''PLOT ARMOR. ''They can't die. That rather-crappy reason aside, in the Zeist Campaign, the Space Marines made a rather good showing of themselves against the Tau, driving them back at every turn, only to be denied the chance of making a thrust into Tau-held space by the fact they were needed elsewhere. In my opinion, that is still a great victory.

The one reason the Xai'athi might fail where the Tau had "succeeded" (I still don't think they won the Damocles Crusade) is that their power is their undoing. When the Imperium see how much power they have amassed, they would send a much greater force upon seeing the threat the are. We're talking about Imperial Assassins, Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions and Imperial Guard Regiments. If we're assuming this Crusade is after Abaddon is thrown back into the Warp, there will be more soldiers than ever could be imagined. And I'm guessing if they somehow lose, Xai'athi planets will get blown up as they retreat out of Federation space. Interdictor 00:25, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Plot armor yes. Travel no. Most of Solaris sits outside of the Astronomican. All they have to do is jack up the Imperium real bad and retreat, and the Frontier suck up the retailiation. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 00:35, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I still think you need to change that. It is simply wrong for any faction to be able to strike at the Imperium without any chance of retaliation. It's an unfair advantage, plain and simple. Supahbadmarine 00:53, December 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's collective fiction. If it bothers you so much, just write about some clever Imperial Navy commander who thinks of a way to strike at them and does so. Obviously, you can't make them completely crush the Xai'athi as they're not yours to crush; but a civilization of trillions can get slapped around a little bit without collapsing.--OvaltinePatrol 01:14, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Making a character just to do the Xai'athi some damage seems kind of petty. Supahbadmarine 02:02, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Well, thank you for supporting me Oveltine. Anyway Supah, I've decided to leave the Xai'athi as they are. While I understand the point your trying to make, that is the only region of space not inhabited by a canon or fanon faction and large enough for Solaris. Also, given the unfair advantage all the factions have (Necrons and their super weapons, the Tau and their plot armor, the Eldar and their space elvyness), I just don't care anymore. I'm sorry. I just don't. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 02:47, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Viva, none of the Canon rfactions have an unfair advantage (Well... Maybe the Necrons). They all have appropriately powered abilities. The Imperial Guard might not be the best as far as standard quality, but they can fight and win in a even fight against them. The reason why yours is an unfair advantage is that it allows the Xai'athi to attack with impunity, but makes sure they can't be attacked effectively in return. Supahbadmarine 04:46, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I still don't care. I chose that region for multiple reasons, and whether or not you like that the Imperium can't invade Solaris won't change my mind. Unless you can magically extend the Astronomican beyond its canonical limits and covince the Xai'athi to go back in time and settle a hostile region space, Solaris will remain in it's location, whether you like it or not. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 05:05, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Viva, if you don't care then I don't care either. I am starting to think that all you care about is making a faction that is better than everyone, and dominates the setting. If that's the case then you can forget about having my help in the future. Supahbadmarine 05:08, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Can I just step in and say this? Calm down. What else can I say?

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 05:10, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I am not angry Dirge. Just tired of struggling to get Viva to work with me. If my input has no value to him then I simply won't give it. Simple as that. Supahbadmarine 05:12, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Lets just keep a cool head about this. Viva that was a very inconsiderate comment. Basically you say that you dont care for those who have taken the time and the patience to help you with your articles. An article may I remind you, that broke rules and may have been deleted at its start. Especially considering how notoriously stubborn you can be.

Lets just be civilized about this. Supa be patient a bit longer. A Viva, please be more open minded and considerate.

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 05:17, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Regards -

Regardless of the fact Supah has helped me, help I have thanked him for in the past, he refuses to listen to my point. Also, from my point of view, it seems Supah won't be satisfied unless the Xai'athi are right on top of Terra. When they were too far away, he didn't like, when they were too close, he didn't like. I put just outside of the Astronomican, and I can't even have that! I'm done changing their fluff. I've made it as canon friendly as possible while trying to keep them as close to my ideas. I got rid of their gods, for Supah. And changed their mode of travel, for Supah. I changed their abilities, traits, and technologies, for Supah. Now he wants yet another concession, and you want to get mad that I'm inconsiderate? I've thanked him numerous times for his help, and have many changes, and even when I really want keep something for the Xai'athi, such as their travel type, he wants to get mad at me? You keep talking about the fact that I'm trying to make them better than everyone else, when I've stated that they have weaknesses that would lead to their downfall. I have every right to be angry. I tried to reason, tried to present evidence and canon facts, but when you refuse to listen, that's when I get mad. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 05:28, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

OK, well Supa, you here this? So Viva your not happy that you have to constantly change your article to fit the rules. Supa your not happy that this wails on every faction in 40k with impunity.

Can we work something out? And before people yell they have been doing this the whole time, what can we do to end it?

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 05:32, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I've done my part. Only the Imperium is effected by this. The Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, and Eldar (the Xai'athi's traditional enemy mind you), are free to do as they please. And if Supah read the article for Solaris, he'd know that not all of Solaris is outside of the Astronomican. The Frontier Regions, as I've described, are right next to the Imperium, who wails on them practically all of the time. That 65 trillion Xai'athi suffering from the Imperium's attcks. One-fifth of the population. Now, I've also stated that the Xai'athi have the oldest empire not broken up during the Age of Strife, and the longest lasting military of man. Plus, they are the most advanced human force in the galaxy. Why? Because they settled a region of space away from the action, and revealled themselves when they had to. I won't get into the details, because their in the articles. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 05:43, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Listen guys I know there is a little war here but im just trying to avoid any bad blood. And Viva, I do in fact know what it feels like to have your article under scrutiny. Then flamed even when nothing is wrong. Why do you think I left Halo Fanon? But can you deny that some things are uber powning the rest of 40k? Heck, you say alot of things can hurt Solaris, but I dont see them stressed enough or even mentioned.

Lets just make a compromise. Something to end these all too frequent arguments.

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 05:47, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

You rarely see them happen because the Xai'athi haven't faced it yet. When an issue presents itself, the Xai'athi deticate their resources to kill it. When the massive Chaos conversion took place in Solaris, the Xai'athi began hunting down and killing one who they suspected of planning. Also, you rarely see issues happening because I have not gotten to them. The Tribulation Era hasn't been spoken of because I have no ideas for it yet, having only vaguely desrcibed it in Kaizaro Zhelezo and Kaizari Ingenu's administrations. Once I get around to developing that bit of their history, then you will get more. Do you have any idea idea how long their history is? The major events? The wars? The tragedies? When I wrote the part on the Great Eldar Rebellion, I skipped the Third Ork Wars and the Second Eldar Conflict. The Sadique Crisis? I skipped the Second Ork Wars and completely left out the Subgation Wars, which spanned five thousands years. Writing fluff for a race as old, powerful, influential, and important as the Xai'athi is not easy. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 05:57, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I have never said writing something this huge is easy. It cant be. So, the Xai'athi DO in fact suffer from grimdark LIKE THE REST OF THE GALAXY. They ARE NOT getting off easy while everyone else is burning. I do believe that the greatest problem was its perfect solution to everything and not being affect by any major force. But apparently a wholel f****-ton of trouble is heading for them eh?

Supa, if the Xai'athi are suffer attacks like everyone else, is one of the major problems solved? So can we be patient enough to wait for these troubles? And Viva can you sometime in the near future, stress these troubles so to ease the tension?

Regards -DirgeOfCerberus111 06:04, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I will. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 06:24, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to re-ignite a little war here... sorry Viva, for any inconvenience caused. Don't get me wrong, the article is great, with a lot of effort put into it, and I respect that. I just wanted to see how the Imperium would stack up against the Xai'athi, is all. Interdictor 09:07, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Its okay. Now we go that stuff out, we can fix some old issues. Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 14:33, December 18, 2011 (UTC)

Sigh
I'll just ignore your previous comment and pretend you didn't say that. <.< Vivaporius says: "I don't need a slogan!" 17:44, January 30, 2012 (UTC)