Talk:Solaris Federation/1

I would not use the term combined might, as it implies that these guys could take them all at once. Supahbadmarine 18:13, March 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, what I meant was that the Xai'athi are capable of holding off several attacks at once, but more than capable of taking on one at a time. -Vivaporius

I have to say, i think that this empire is way too big. I think that you will find that the other Userts agree with me. Supahbadmarine 20:29, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing as well. Maybe 50-75,000 systems. Vivaporius 20:41, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

The next biggest Empire in canon, the Tau Empire, is less than a hundred worlds. Supahbadmarine 20:42, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

What if I put these guys at the far edge of the galaxy? Vivaporius 20:51, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

They still would not be able to have so many planets. It may not seem like it, but habitable planets are actually uncommon by comparisen to all the different types. On that note, I doubt that there are that many planet period in the galactic core. Supahbadmarine 20:54, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

I just had an even better idea. What if I dropped the number of systems to 7,500, and placed them in several large star clusters?

Might work. Keep in mind that most interstellar empire are not even in the double digits. An empire of about a hundred or so is a very respectable number. You don't have to match the Imperium, no one can really. Supahbadmarine 20:58, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Didn't see that last post you made, sorry. But I'm thinking about just placing them in the Megellan clouds. Vivaporius 20:59, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Another reason for not having a massive number of systems is that it becomes difficult to manage the Empire. The systems would be very spread out which could leave room for corruption in the local planetary government, which could cuase civil unrest. Furthermore you would be constantly dealing with constant attacks from someone or another. Supahbadmarine 21:02, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Already had solutions for that. The Xai'athi use a seperate form of travel, allowing them to reach systems alot faster than the Imperium, but slightly slower than the Eldar. A caste system which basically solves the corruption problem, and their general sense of brotherhood and guidence from their creator, who unlike the God-Emperor, is still alive and very much active. Vivaporius 21:07, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Good to see you thought this through. Just remember that the more planets you have, the more planets you have to defend. Also, no race is immune to corruption from Chaos or Genestealer Cults. Supahbadmarine 21:10, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Neve said they were immune, just that it'd be unpleasent to the assiliant. :) Vivaporius 21:32, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Just to be sure, the Magellanic Clouds aren't mentioned in the W40k Universe, right? Vivaporius 19:43, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Just had a read over this article at the request of Supah... And I am in agreeance with his comments, this empire is far too large... making it as large as the Imperium is not possible regardless of when they became an empire, there would have been constant war and they would have been conquered during the Great Crusade that conquered all known space. None would have survived... which brings me to my biggest issue... Origins from Terra?? Abhumans would not have been allowed to survive on Terra, especially not in the numbers described. It is a good article but trying to tie them in with Terra so much and making them stronger than the Imperium in power kills the article... my recommendation, reduce their territory severly and its prob best they to come from Xeno origins after the Great Crusade... Also I have to bring up, check out Margos Empire and you will find reference to Magellan, my Xeno race is the first original that was displayed on this site --War within, War without, War unending 15:12, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for checking it out. I've placed them outside of the Milky Way, and explained in detail how they grew to their current size. I'll try to think of another way to explain their roots.

I forgot to mention, these guys left Terra before the Great Crusade, during the Dark Age of Technology. I don't know if humanity was as genocidial as the Imperium during that period.

I forgot to add sig. This goes for both. Vivaporius 19:57, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Viva, the problem is that nobody besides the Imperium has any business being that size or strength. Supahbadmarine 20:05, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Don't mean to a pest, but why? Solaris isn't even near the size of the Imperium, I plan to keep it that way. Vivaporius 20:12, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Trust me when I say that a few hundred worlds is still seriously pushing it. Please understand, I am not one of those guys that wants to ruin everybody elses fun. A civilization of this size would be considered a serious threat by the Imperium. Furhtermore, the fact that it is an untainted human civilization means that the Imperium would profit immensely from conquering it. In fact in this case being mighty is not a deterrent for conquest, it is an incentive. Supahbadmarine 20:18, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I found a timeline and I'm now fixing the Xai'athi accordingly. Also, I'm coming up with a different story for the Xai'athi's creation. Mabye an illegal experiment, or on a far off colony that lost contact with Terra? I don't know. Vivaporius 20:20, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

That beginning will work on the ocndition that it was after the Great Crusade... The Emperor conquered pretty much all lost colonies so if they were established before then they would have gone to war and been wiped out by the Legions... Also you might like to look into Squats, they became so because of the extreme gravity on their worlds, environmental conditions affect genetics... and yes, a few hundred would make them larger and more powerful than even the Tau... 50 thousand plus would make them rival the Imperium itself... to place them outside the milky way (there are no worlds) in the dead of space between galaxies there is no planetary bodies. The only real option is to make their empire small enough on the edge of the Imperium to both fit and not be overly noticed and wiped out by regiment after regiment of Imperial Guard, just as they would have with the Tau in the Damascus Crusade --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 00:37, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I placed them in the Large Magellanic Cloud, far from the Imperium. Solaris was an establised power long before the Imperium. The Magellanic Cloud has millions of stars, and few enemies in the way of expansion. Travel to the cloud using Imperium would take thousands of years, not to mention the limited range of the Astronomicon.

Solaris is 160,000 lightyears away from the Imperium, three times as far from the Astronomicon's 50,000 lightyear range. Vivaporius 03:08, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Why are you so dead set on having a massive empire? It does not make it a better article. Furhtermore if what you said is true then the Solaris Federation isn't going to take part in anything substatial, and they won't be able to be allies with the Empire of the Star. Is that really what you want? Supahbadmarine 04:09, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not dead set on having a massive empire, and I know bigger isn't always better. I planned out the Federation according to canon, and set it up in a way that makes sense. Solaris can partake in galactic events, and has the means of doing so. You can liken Solaris to a person in a large empty house in the woods. Would you stay in your bedroom instead of do as you please in the house only you built because you don't want to upset the guy living on the other side of the world? 98.227.159.252 04:51, April 20, 2011

Within this galaxy the Imperium maintain dominance... so do they occupy some other galaxy? Coz if so it must be further away than even the Tyranids Galaxy. To be a part of the 40k universe they must have a presence within the Imperium as the whole game revolves around it... Also by what you are saying about travelling distances would make them more advanced than the Necrons or Eldar, 2 races created by the ancient ones. Also Magellan has been claimed as a name by the Margos Empire so it must be changed... This article has much potential but if you intend to stick with the size and placement of this article it will be deemed NCF... --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:03, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Even if those weren't all problems, nobody would want to play in the same sandbox as these guys. None of the Chaos Warbands or Ork Waaagh!!!s are going to travel all that way to fight an opponent that is that much bigger than they are, and far more prosperous than the Imperium. It's not like Abaddon is going to get up and drag a Black Crusade all the way there. They are too far away to play with any of the big boys, and too strong for anyone who would have the time to seek the empire out. Supahbadmarine 05:14, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I ran battery life. Anyhow, ignore my previous statement and metaphore. I've decided to overhaul the entire thing. I'm giving them a new story, background, and size. Hopefully I can get this right. BTW, lag just behind the Eldar. And too tell the truth, anyone is more prospous than the Imperium. 98.227.159.252 05:30, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Also, the Magellan used by the Margos Empire is a world. The one I'm refering to are the real life Magellanic Clouds outside the Milky Way, two satellite galaxies that orbit our own. 98.227.159.252 05:35, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

That is because they aren't as big. It's like the old saying. The bigger you are, the easier it becomes for an Ork to actually hit you with his Shoota. Supahbadmarine 05:36, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think kinda got the meaning of that. Vivaporius 05:38, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Since you are revamping the article, may I make a suggestion. Since you are probably going to make the empire smaller, and more within reach then you will probably will have a run in with the Imperium. Since the Imperium would stop at nothing to conquer an untainted human civilization, this could be a problem. If you intend to keep them as Abhumans, then I suggest that you make it that their anatomy has changedso much that the Imperium believes them to be Xenos. After all, the Eldar look very human. Supahbadmarine 05:44, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I've considered it, but plan to alter the Xai'athi form very little. Breeds like the upcoming Anugami (based off the forms of some Hindu gods), many meet the xeno appearance. Also, I limit Solaris to say, 2500 systems, maybe fewer. Artifical stars, planets and moons will help explain such growth. Solaris will be placed just outside of the Astronomicon, but close enough for the occasional vistor. Anx comments? Vivaporius 06:01, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Once its revamped i'll take a read up and leave notes on it htere, its not fair if i place judgement before then... Using Magellan as a name stands tho, it has already been claimed (whether it is a world or galaxy means little) and it isnt fair to claim the same name --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:21, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Just quickly coz ive noticed it... a peace treaty would have only occured during the Great Crusade on the condition the Xa'athi become subjects of the Imperium, otherwise they would have been wiped out as the goal of the Emperor was to unify the galaxy and destroy all who refused... If you are dead-set on this path they will need to become subjects of the Imperium --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 02:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Didn't know that, thanks. I'll handle the treaty part. But what if the Xai'athi rebelled in the near future, would that work?

Also, what if they rebelled during the Heresy? Vivaporius 03:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Rebelling following the heresy would work, you would have to make them come under constant attack tho... possibly will be able to work into it a crusade or 2 such as the damocles crusade against the tau --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 03:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to point out a thing that I noticed. You stated that the Federation has bad relations with the Eldar. The thing is that the Eldar don't make political allies or enemies as a group anymore. It has been a long time since there was any governing body for the race, so the hostilities would be entirely on the Federation's side. Also, on the Matter of them and Orks. Orks are not simply dumb brutes to be manipulated. The Orks outnumber everybody else in the galaxy, and they live to fight. Even if you hire them a mercs they are still likely to turn on you. Supahbadmarine 04:00, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeh that is a common misconception... Ghazghkull Thraka himself is cunning and very intelligent... you dont get to be a warboss by not being as such, agreed with Supah on both counts --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 04:20, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Eldar deal hasn't been work out yet. Just a general outline. On the matter of the Orks, you can liken them to the Europeans and Africans. The Africans were by no means stupid as the Europeans made them out to be. One was industrialized, had urban centres, and a centralized govenment, while the other did not. It was a culture shock for the Europeans. The Xai'athi consider Orks "dumb" because their so different. But as with the Europeans, the Orks still have their uses. Vivaporius 04:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Another thing. No idiot would have been able to build a motorcycle capable of smashing through 12 void shields, into the brigde of a Titan, then out the back with the bones of it crew in hand. That takes serious brain matter. Vivaporius 04:32, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Dont liken 40k races to real world races, they each have their particular created characteristics and the only way to create canon-friendly articles by using particular races is to understand them rather than compare them to reality --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 04:34, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The problem with that analogy is that the Africans couldn't do any real damage against the Europeans. The Orks might be simple, but they are cunning, they come at you in massive armies and they are a perfect warrior species. Their technology may be simple, but there are certain cases where their science baffles even the Adeptus Mechanicus. Finally, they have no fear of death. They don't care how big or well equiped their opponent is, and go into battle with perfect faith that they'll win no matter what. Supahbadmarine 04:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I could only think of the Europeans for some reason, anywho. The Ashanti and Zulu almost brought Britian's gains in Africa down, so theoritically, could harm the Europeans, and lets not forget Ethiopia. And the Xai'athi deal with Orks the why they handle their meat. Kill it. Cook it. Eat it. Done. Doesn't matter who brave the Orks are, their still meat. Vivaporius 04:53, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As for the Mechanicus, they are the true idiots. I'm pretty that if I gave them my computer and turned on that their heads would explode. They worship Robot Jesus. Nuff said. Vivaporius 05:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You have it totally wrong... Orks are not mere cattle, like Supah said they are cunning and do not fear death, thye fight just for the sake of it... Also theyre not really edible, theyre practically big walking and talking mushrooms... and thats a bit far fetched about the mechanicum --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:05, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, you just massively oversimplified 40k, and you got it wrong to boot. Anybody who doesn't look at Orks as a threat gets their butts kicked hard. Supahbadmarine 05:05, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, I respect the Orks. The Xai'athi, having almost been wiped out by the Eldar, and the humans (twice might I add), the Orks are considered a major headache. And to frank, I believe it's impossible to dumb down 40k, ever. Didn't mean to disrespect. Also, the Xai'athi can digest anything. Three year old egg salad, plutonium, my grandmother's fruitcake, anything. Vivaporius 05:27, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

If they have been almost wiped out twice how is it possible they occupy 2,500 systems? the Tau have been almost wiped out once and dont occupy a 20th of those systems... --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As for the Mechanicus, I believe their dumb do to the fact that be science is a reilgion instead of a practice, the fact that their slow to adopt new ideas, and the fact that ther responsible for humanity terrible tech growth. And I really don't like fact that the Emperor screwed them over into believing he was the Omnissiah.Vivaporius 05:37, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Also... I love the Machine God, bought a techmarine to paint even tho he doesnt fit in my army... if I had to choose a race/unit to be id be a Techmarine, slightly off topic but the Mechanicum are the bomb --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:38, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Actually the reason for their poor tech growth is the fact that humanity almost killed itself with it's own tech during the Dark Age of Technology, and lost it all. Supahbadmarine 05:43, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

They've been around longer. They were an establised power 5,000 years before the Imperium. They fled their planet and colonized a new one. 100 years or so the Eldar came around. 5,000 later they run into Imperium. Most of their systems are artifical, and some are empty, but have massive fleets that reside within thus placing that within control of Solaris.

Pretty aware of that. But it's been 20,000 years. No excuses for them not to try. Vivaporius 05:48, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

There are variables there that you are not considering, but that is besides the point. When we say Orks are a threat, we mean a massive threat. An Ork Waaaagh! is one of the most devastating forces in the galaxy, right behind a Black Crusade and a Tyrannic War. Supahbadmarine 05:57, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Does the Second War for Armageddon ring any bells? it took 3 full Chapters and multiple regiments to push back the Waaagh! and they didnt even destroy the Orks... I cannot stand the Orks but you cannot deny they are some of the most dangerous creatures in the galaxy --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I get the point. But what trying how the Xai'athi survived the Ork attacks. For one there are black holes ane frequent warp storms that plague the region, and second, unlike the Imperium, Solaris doesn't pee manpower. Their more likely to deal with a threat without resorting to conflict, hence the Akili, the Xai'athi's trump card. Vivaporius 06:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Whenever I think of Orks I can only think of Armegeddon. You don't forget that kind of stuff. Vivaporius-

The point that I am driving at is that their attitude does not work. It is alright for them to use Orks as mercenaries. Even the Imperium hire Blood Axe Orks to fight for them in rare instances, and the Eldar manipulate them as well. The problem is that for anybody to make a policy of looking at them as simpletons to be exploited is to invite calamity on a large scale. Also Orks don't mind Black Holes. If there is someone to fight, then they will find a way to get there even if they have to lose a fleet. Supahbadmarine 06:16, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as Supah has that about established we can now also talk about the point of the Eldar slaves... 17million on a craftworld with 14million killed and 3million enslaved??? Then there is also the part about boarding an Eldar Craftworld and forcing it to land... Stronger armies have tried and failed, with their Farseers predicting everything they cannot be caught by surprise like that especially when the Eldar had the defenders outnumbered... that whole section will result with NCF as there is little to no way around it... you need to read up more on the Eldar and how fierce they would fight to protect their craftworlds, thye would die rather than surrender it --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:23, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Xai'athi don't think of them as simpletons, and the fact they joyful fly into a black hole proves that. The Xai'athi infiltrated the Orks a long time ago, and know exactly how powerful they are. However, the Xai'athi don't respect that power, thats the problem. Vivaporius 06:28, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hence the nanites. The Eldar may be able to see into the future, but the Xai'athi were to create temporary blocks in their visions. The Xai'athi got onboard by shaping their forms into Eldar. The farseers saw their defeat coming, but continued interfence by Xai'athi pyskers kept them finding out how. Vivaporius 06:35, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

So you are saying this race is more psychically powerful than the Eldar... entirely over-powered and NCF, even by changing their shape into an Eldar the real Eldar would have noticed due to their extreme attention to detail, enhanced senses and knowing each individual around them... that the Eldar could be fooled by this Xeno race who would be young compared to them is preposterous, you have no way around this argument nor the other so take the criticism and work the article into a canon-friendly article --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:41, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Also, the Xai'athi enslaved the Eldar as punishment. They were planning on killing them all but needed a workforce to rebuild. The Xai'athi chopped the craft up over the decades, and forced pieces of it into the oceans of Nyumbani, which there were alot of. Also, the Eldar were wiped out when the Xai'athi were in nanite form. Vivaporius 06:43, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have one. The Xai'athi, like humans, are stronger phsyically, but weaker mentally. It took hundreds of pyskers to distract the farseers, some even died in the process. The Xai'athi who got onboard had to do as suicide bombers, taking out defenders and power sources. the tiny fleet the Xai'athi had needed to plow it's way into the craftworld. Also, the craftworld was damaged before the war. It flew into another ship taking out a good portion of the Eldar, and most of their warriors. Vivaporius 06:53, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

That doesnt work, an Eldar craftworld doesnt move into orbit of a planet and as soon as it gets damaged flees to avoid losing an entire civilization... they would have operated with void stalkers or wraithships... it is not feasible especially with the fact they would have died to the last rather than surrender --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 07:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

These group of Eldar really care much about that. This was a small craftworld that drifted into orbit. Nyumbani was the closest world. Also, the Xai'athi slave chips as motivation. Vivaporius 07:08, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You do not know much about Craftworld Eldar as a race... read up more on it then get back to us when you understand --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 07:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The craftworld was losing the ability to sustain life, and the power supplies were destroyed. Rather than die in space, the Eldar steered their ship to Nyumbani, with the hope they could themselves, and repair the ship. Vivaporius 07:13, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

How did that happen? Why did that happen? much of this article does not fit and the particular point is that this race believe they can fool or outmanouver the Eldar... there are many issues in this article which you are trying to create to be super-powered when it simply is not realistic... im done arguing with you on this, listen to our criticisms, understand and work on it to make it canon-friendly... or dont and have the article deemed NCF --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 07:19, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Continuation
I've revised the section regarding the Eldar, stating the craftworld was heavily damaged due to an attack by the Orks, and in the process, their leaders and most important weapons were destroyed in the fight. Their people drifted to the planet, and proceded to cleanse the planet of the Xai'athi, who only by using their most powerful weapons, and out of desperation, their own bodies, to repel the attack. Vivaporius 08:44, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You arent getting it and its really starting to bug me... if the Eldar were to be at such a weakened state they would not have launched an attack... plain and simple, theyre smarter than that --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 14:31, April 21, 2011 (UTC)