Talk:Solaris Federation/1

I would not use the term combined might, as it implies that these guys could take them all at once. Supahbadmarine 18:13, March 15, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, what I meant was that the Xai'athi are capable of holding off several attacks at once, but more than capable of taking on one at a time. -Vivaporius

I have to say, i think that this empire is way too big. I think that you will find that the other Userts agree with me. Supahbadmarine 20:29, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing as well. Maybe 50-75,000 systems. Vivaporius 20:41, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

The next biggest Empire in canon, the Tau Empire, is less than a hundred worlds. Supahbadmarine 20:42, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

What if I put these guys at the far edge of the galaxy? Vivaporius 20:51, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

They still would not be able to have so many planets. It may not seem like it, but habitable planets are actually uncommon by comparisen to all the different types. On that note, I doubt that there are that many planet period in the galactic core. Supahbadmarine 20:54, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

I just had an even better idea. What if I dropped the number of systems to 7,500, and placed them in several large star clusters?

Might work. Keep in mind that most interstellar empire are not even in the double digits. An empire of about a hundred or so is a very respectable number. You don't have to match the Imperium, no one can really. Supahbadmarine 20:58, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Didn't see that last post you made, sorry. But I'm thinking about just placing them in the Megellan clouds. Vivaporius 20:59, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Another reason for not having a massive number of systems is that it becomes difficult to manage the Empire. The systems would be very spread out which could leave room for corruption in the local planetary government, which could cuase civil unrest. Furthermore you would be constantly dealing with constant attacks from someone or another. Supahbadmarine 21:02, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Already had solutions for that. The Xai'athi use a seperate form of travel, allowing them to reach systems alot faster than the Imperium, but slightly slower than the Eldar. A caste system which basically solves the corruption problem, and their general sense of brotherhood and guidence from their creator, who unlike the God-Emperor, is still alive and very much active. Vivaporius 21:07, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Good to see you thought this through. Just remember that the more planets you have, the more planets you have to defend. Also, no race is immune to corruption from Chaos or Genestealer Cults. Supahbadmarine 21:10, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Neve said they were immune, just that it'd be unpleasent to the assiliant. :) Vivaporius 21:32, March 30, 2011 (UTC)

Just to be sure, the Magellanic Clouds aren't mentioned in the W40k Universe, right? Vivaporius 19:43, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Just had a read over this article at the request of Supah... And I am in agreeance with his comments, this empire is far too large... making it as large as the Imperium is not possible regardless of when they became an empire, there would have been constant war and they would have been conquered during the Great Crusade that conquered all known space. None would have survived... which brings me to my biggest issue... Origins from Terra?? Abhumans would not have been allowed to survive on Terra, especially not in the numbers described. It is a good article but trying to tie them in with Terra so much and making them stronger than the Imperium in power kills the article... my recommendation, reduce their territory severly and its prob best they to come from Xeno origins after the Great Crusade... Also I have to bring up, check out Margos Empire and you will find reference to Magellan, my Xeno race is the first original that was displayed on this site --War within, War without, War unending 15:12, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for checking it out. I've placed them outside of the Milky Way, and explained in detail how they grew to their current size. I'll try to think of another way to explain their roots.

I forgot to mention, these guys left Terra before the Great Crusade, during the Dark Age of Technology. I don't know if humanity was as genocidial as the Imperium during that period.

I forgot to add sig. This goes for both. Vivaporius 19:57, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Viva, the problem is that nobody besides the Imperium has any business being that size or strength. Supahbadmarine 20:05, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Don't mean to a pest, but why? Solaris isn't even near the size of the Imperium, I plan to keep it that way. Vivaporius 20:12, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

Trust me when I say that a few hundred worlds is still seriously pushing it. Please understand, I am not one of those guys that wants to ruin everybody elses fun. A civilization of this size would be considered a serious threat by the Imperium. Furhtermore, the fact that it is an untainted human civilization means that the Imperium would profit immensely from conquering it. In fact in this case being mighty is not a deterrent for conquest, it is an incentive. Supahbadmarine 20:18, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

I found a timeline and I'm now fixing the Xai'athi accordingly. Also, I'm coming up with a different story for the Xai'athi's creation. Mabye an illegal experiment, or on a far off colony that lost contact with Terra? I don't know. Vivaporius 20:20, April 19, 2011 (UTC)

That beginning will work on the ocndition that it was after the Great Crusade... The Emperor conquered pretty much all lost colonies so if they were established before then they would have gone to war and been wiped out by the Legions... Also you might like to look into Squats, they became so because of the extreme gravity on their worlds, environmental conditions affect genetics... and yes, a few hundred would make them larger and more powerful than even the Tau... 50 thousand plus would make them rival the Imperium itself... to place them outside the milky way (there are no worlds) in the dead of space between galaxies there is no planetary bodies. The only real option is to make their empire small enough on the edge of the Imperium to both fit and not be overly noticed and wiped out by regiment after regiment of Imperial Guard, just as they would have with the Tau in the Damascus Crusade --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 00:37, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I placed them in the Large Magellanic Cloud, far from the Imperium. Solaris was an establised power long before the Imperium. The Magellanic Cloud has millions of stars, and few enemies in the way of expansion. Travel to the cloud using Imperium would take thousands of years, not to mention the limited range of the Astronomicon.

Solaris is 160,000 lightyears away from the Imperium, three times as far from the Astronomicon's 50,000 lightyear range. Vivaporius 03:08, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Why are you so dead set on having a massive empire? It does not make it a better article. Furhtermore if what you said is true then the Solaris Federation isn't going to take part in anything substatial, and they won't be able to be allies with the Empire of the Star. Is that really what you want? Supahbadmarine 04:09, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not dead set on having a massive empire, and I know bigger isn't always better. I planned out the Federation according to canon, and set it up in a way that makes sense. Solaris can partake in galactic events, and has the means of doing so. You can liken Solaris to a person in a large empty house in the woods. Would you stay in your bedroom instead of do as you please in the house only you built because you don't want to upset the guy living on the other side of the world? 98.227.159.252 04:51, April 20, 2011

Within this galaxy the Imperium maintain dominance... so do they occupy some other galaxy? Coz if so it must be further away than even the Tyranids Galaxy. To be a part of the 40k universe they must have a presence within the Imperium as the whole game revolves around it... Also by what you are saying about travelling distances would make them more advanced than the Necrons or Eldar, 2 races created by the ancient ones. Also Magellan has been claimed as a name by the Margos Empire so it must be changed... This article has much potential but if you intend to stick with the size and placement of this article it will be deemed NCF... --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:03, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Even if those weren't all problems, nobody would want to play in the same sandbox as these guys. None of the Chaos Warbands or Ork Waaagh!!!s are going to travel all that way to fight an opponent that is that much bigger than they are, and far more prosperous than the Imperium. It's not like Abaddon is going to get up and drag a Black Crusade all the way there. They are too far away to play with any of the big boys, and too strong for anyone who would have the time to seek the empire out. Supahbadmarine 05:14, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I ran battery life. Anyhow, ignore my previous statement and metaphore. I've decided to overhaul the entire thing. I'm giving them a new story, background, and size. Hopefully I can get this right. BTW, lag just behind the Eldar. And too tell the truth, anyone is more prospous than the Imperium. 98.227.159.252 05:30, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Also, the Magellan used by the Margos Empire is a world. The one I'm refering to are the real life Magellanic Clouds outside the Milky Way, two satellite galaxies that orbit our own. 98.227.159.252 05:35, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

That is because they aren't as big. It's like the old saying. The bigger you are, the easier it becomes for an Ork to actually hit you with his Shoota. Supahbadmarine 05:36, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think kinda got the meaning of that. Vivaporius 05:38, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Since you are revamping the article, may I make a suggestion. Since you are probably going to make the empire smaller, and more within reach then you will probably will have a run in with the Imperium. Since the Imperium would stop at nothing to conquer an untainted human civilization, this could be a problem. If you intend to keep them as Abhumans, then I suggest that you make it that their anatomy has changedso much that the Imperium believes them to be Xenos. After all, the Eldar look very human. Supahbadmarine 05:44, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

I've considered it, but plan to alter the Xai'athi form very little. Breeds like the upcoming Anugami (based off the forms of some Hindu gods), many meet the xeno appearance. Also, I limit Solaris to say, 2500 systems, maybe fewer. Artifical stars, planets and moons will help explain such growth. Solaris will be placed just outside of the Astronomicon, but close enough for the occasional vistor. Anx comments? Vivaporius 06:01, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Once its revamped i'll take a read up and leave notes on it htere, its not fair if i place judgement before then... Using Magellan as a name stands tho, it has already been claimed (whether it is a world or galaxy means little) and it isnt fair to claim the same name --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:21, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

Just quickly coz ive noticed it... a peace treaty would have only occured during the Great Crusade on the condition the Xa'athi become subjects of the Imperium, otherwise they would have been wiped out as the goal of the Emperor was to unify the galaxy and destroy all who refused... If you are dead-set on this path they will need to become subjects of the Imperium --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 02:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Didn't know that, thanks. I'll handle the treaty part. But what if the Xai'athi rebelled in the near future, would that work?

Also, what if they rebelled during the Heresy? Vivaporius 03:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Rebelling following the heresy would work, you would have to make them come under constant attack tho... possibly will be able to work into it a crusade or 2 such as the damocles crusade against the tau --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 03:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to point out a thing that I noticed. You stated that the Federation has bad relations with the Eldar. The thing is that the Eldar don't make political allies or enemies as a group anymore. It has been a long time since there was any governing body for the race, so the hostilities would be entirely on the Federation's side. Also, on the Matter of them and Orks. Orks are not simply dumb brutes to be manipulated. The Orks outnumber everybody else in the galaxy, and they live to fight. Even if you hire them a mercs they are still likely to turn on you. Supahbadmarine 04:00, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeh that is a common misconception... Ghazghkull Thraka himself is cunning and very intelligent... you dont get to be a warboss by not being as such, agreed with Supah on both counts --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 04:20, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Eldar deal hasn't been work out yet. Just a general outline. On the matter of the Orks, you can liken them to the Europeans and Africans. The Africans were by no means stupid as the Europeans made them out to be. One was industrialized, had urban centres, and a centralized govenment, while the other did not. It was a culture shock for the Europeans. The Xai'athi consider Orks "dumb" because their so different. But as with the Europeans, the Orks still have their uses. Vivaporius 04:26, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Another thing. No idiot would have been able to build a motorcycle capable of smashing through 12 void shields, into the brigde of a Titan, then out the back with the bones of it crew in hand. That takes serious brain matter. Vivaporius 04:32, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Dont liken 40k races to real world races, they each have their particular created characteristics and the only way to create canon-friendly articles by using particular races is to understand them rather than compare them to reality --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 04:34, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The problem with that analogy is that the Africans couldn't do any real damage against the Europeans. The Orks might be simple, but they are cunning, they come at you in massive armies and they are a perfect warrior species. Their technology may be simple, but there are certain cases where their science baffles even the Adeptus Mechanicus. Finally, they have no fear of death. They don't care how big or well equiped their opponent is, and go into battle with perfect faith that they'll win no matter what. Supahbadmarine 04:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I could only think of the Europeans for some reason, anywho. The Ashanti and Zulu almost brought Britian's gains in Africa down, so theoritically, could harm the Europeans, and lets not forget Ethiopia. And the Xai'athi deal with Orks the why they handle their meat. Kill it. Cook it. Eat it. Done. Doesn't matter who brave the Orks are, their still meat. Vivaporius 04:53, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As for the Mechanicus, they are the true idiots. I'm pretty that if I gave them my computer and turned on that their heads would explode. They worship Robot Jesus. Nuff said. Vivaporius 05:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You have it totally wrong... Orks are not mere cattle, like Supah said they are cunning and do not fear death, thye fight just for the sake of it... Also theyre not really edible, theyre practically big walking and talking mushrooms... and thats a bit far fetched about the mechanicum --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:05, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, you just massively oversimplified 40k, and you got it wrong to boot. Anybody who doesn't look at Orks as a threat gets their butts kicked hard. Supahbadmarine 05:05, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, I respect the Orks. The Xai'athi, having almost been wiped out by the Eldar, and the humans (twice might I add), the Orks are considered a major headache. And to frank, I believe it's impossible to dumb down 40k, ever. Didn't mean to disrespect. Also, the Xai'athi can digest anything. Three year old egg salad, plutonium, my grandmother's fruitcake, anything. Vivaporius 05:27, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

If they have been almost wiped out twice how is it possible they occupy 2,500 systems? the Tau have been almost wiped out once and dont occupy a 20th of those systems... --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:36, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

As for the Mechanicus, I believe their dumb do to the fact that be science is a reilgion instead of a practice, the fact that their slow to adopt new ideas, and the fact that ther responsible for humanity terrible tech growth. And I really don't like fact that the Emperor screwed them over into believing he was the Omnissiah.Vivaporius 05:37, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Also... I love the Machine God, bought a techmarine to paint even tho he doesnt fit in my army... if I had to choose a race/unit to be id be a Techmarine, slightly off topic but the Mechanicum are the bomb --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:38, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Actually the reason for their poor tech growth is the fact that humanity almost killed itself with it's own tech during the Dark Age of Technology, and lost it all. Supahbadmarine 05:43, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

They've been around longer. They were an establised power 5,000 years before the Imperium. They fled their planet and colonized a new one. 100 years or so the Eldar came around. 5,000 later they run into Imperium. Most of their systems are artifical, and some are empty, but have massive fleets that reside within thus placing that within control of Solaris.

Pretty aware of that. But it's been 20,000 years. No excuses for them not to try. Vivaporius 05:48, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

There are variables there that you are not considering, but that is besides the point. When we say Orks are a threat, we mean a massive threat. An Ork Waaaagh! is one of the most devastating forces in the galaxy, right behind a Black Crusade and a Tyrannic War. Supahbadmarine 05:57, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Does the Second War for Armageddon ring any bells? it took 3 full Chapters and multiple regiments to push back the Waaagh! and they didnt even destroy the Orks... I cannot stand the Orks but you cannot deny they are some of the most dangerous creatures in the galaxy --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I get the point. But what trying how the Xai'athi survived the Ork attacks. For one there are black holes ane frequent warp storms that plague the region, and second, unlike the Imperium, Solaris doesn't pee manpower. Their more likely to deal with a threat without resorting to conflict, hence the Akili, the Xai'athi's trump card. Vivaporius 06:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Whenever I think of Orks I can only think of Armegeddon. You don't forget that kind of stuff. Vivaporius-

The point that I am driving at is that their attitude does not work. It is alright for them to use Orks as mercenaries. Even the Imperium hire Blood Axe Orks to fight for them in rare instances, and the Eldar manipulate them as well. The problem is that for anybody to make a policy of looking at them as simpletons to be exploited is to invite calamity on a large scale. Also Orks don't mind Black Holes. If there is someone to fight, then they will find a way to get there even if they have to lose a fleet. Supahbadmarine 06:16, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as Supah has that about established we can now also talk about the point of the Eldar slaves... 17million on a craftworld with 14million killed and 3million enslaved??? Then there is also the part about boarding an Eldar Craftworld and forcing it to land... Stronger armies have tried and failed, with their Farseers predicting everything they cannot be caught by surprise like that especially when the Eldar had the defenders outnumbered... that whole section will result with NCF as there is little to no way around it... you need to read up more on the Eldar and how fierce they would fight to protect their craftworlds, thye would die rather than surrender it --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:23, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Xai'athi don't think of them as simpletons, and the fact they joyful fly into a black hole proves that. The Xai'athi infiltrated the Orks a long time ago, and know exactly how powerful they are. However, the Xai'athi don't respect that power, thats the problem. Vivaporius 06:28, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hence the nanites. The Eldar may be able to see into the future, but the Xai'athi were to create temporary blocks in their visions. The Xai'athi got onboard by shaping their forms into Eldar. The farseers saw their defeat coming, but continued interfence by Xai'athi pyskers kept them finding out how. Vivaporius 06:35, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

So you are saying this race is more psychically powerful than the Eldar... entirely over-powered and NCF, even by changing their shape into an Eldar the real Eldar would have noticed due to their extreme attention to detail, enhanced senses and knowing each individual around them... that the Eldar could be fooled by this Xeno race who would be young compared to them is preposterous, you have no way around this argument nor the other so take the criticism and work the article into a canon-friendly article --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 06:41, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Also, the Xai'athi enslaved the Eldar as punishment. They were planning on killing them all but needed a workforce to rebuild. The Xai'athi chopped the craft up over the decades, and forced pieces of it into the oceans of Nyumbani, which there were alot of. Also, the Eldar were wiped out when the Xai'athi were in nanite form. Vivaporius 06:43, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I have one. The Xai'athi, like humans, are stronger phsyically, but weaker mentally. It took hundreds of pyskers to distract the farseers, some even died in the process. The Xai'athi who got onboard had to do as suicide bombers, taking out defenders and power sources. the tiny fleet the Xai'athi had needed to plow it's way into the craftworld. Also, the craftworld was damaged before the war. It flew into another ship taking out a good portion of the Eldar, and most of their warriors. Vivaporius 06:53, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

That doesnt work, an Eldar craftworld doesnt move into orbit of a planet and as soon as it gets damaged flees to avoid losing an entire civilization... they would have operated with void stalkers or wraithships... it is not feasible especially with the fact they would have died to the last rather than surrender --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 07:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

These group of Eldar really care much about that. This was a small craftworld that drifted into orbit. Nyumbani was the closest world. Also, the Xai'athi slave chips as motivation. Vivaporius 07:08, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You do not know much about Craftworld Eldar as a race... read up more on it then get back to us when you understand --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 07:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The craftworld was losing the ability to sustain life, and the power supplies were destroyed. Rather than die in space, the Eldar steered their ship to Nyumbani, with the hope they could themselves, and repair the ship. Vivaporius 07:13, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

How did that happen? Why did that happen? much of this article does not fit and the particular point is that this race believe they can fool or outmanouver the Eldar... there are many issues in this article which you are trying to create to be super-powered when it simply is not realistic... im done arguing with you on this, listen to our criticisms, understand and work on it to make it canon-friendly... or dont and have the article deemed NCF --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 07:19, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Continuation
I've revised the section regarding the Eldar, stating the craftworld was heavily damaged due to an attack by the Orks, and in the process, their leaders and most important weapons were destroyed in the fight. Their people drifted to the planet, and proceded to cleanse the planet of the Xai'athi, who only by using their most powerful weapons, and out of desperation, their own bodies, to repel the attack. Vivaporius 08:44, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You arent getting it and its really starting to bug me... if the Eldar were to be at such a weakened state they would not have launched an attack... plain and simple, theyre smarter than that --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 14:31, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Think of it this way.

You are far more advanced than the enemy, outnumber his military forces, and have the initiative. The enemy is too busy fueding amoung his own, and is in a weakened state, just humanity during the Age of Strife. They had all of the cards in place, and just needed to use them. They almost wiped out the entire race, and they had no other chose either, the Xai'athi weren't planning on co-existing with a xeno race at all. Vivaporius 15:03, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I dont think you even read my comment... THE ELDAR WOULD NOT HAVE ENGAGED OR COME NEAR AN ENEMY... THEY WOULD HAVE ENTERED ORBIT AROUND SOME OTHER PLANET IF ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO DO SO... Start reading correctly and stop arguing an unwinnable situation --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 15:05, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

And besides, what would they have done, died in space, or take the chance? They were pretty much backed into a wall, and had no other options. Also, these Eldar were undergoing a fued amoung their leaders, and were to distracted to notice the Ork armada. It was a series of events beforehand that lead to the attack, and then th war of Nyumbani. Vivaporius 15:07, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

THERE WERE NO OTHER PLANETS! The Eldar didn't have food, water, or air, and the craftworld was already in the system when they were attacked! The system only had only habitable planet, and it was colonizied already. Plus, their farseers were dead, no foretelling of events, and the Xai'athi would killed them anyway, so war was inevitable to begin with. Vivaporius 15:10, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I am not saying that there is no way to enslave Eldar, but in these conditions there is no way. NoFury is correct in that they would not risk their Craftworld and their lives in a war if they were in such a weakened state. Furthermore they would not surrender. To an Eldar the Craftworld literaly means more than their lives. Their souls are placed into the Craftworlds Infinity Circuit. When an Eldar's Craftworld is destroyed it dooms the souls of them and all of their ancestors to be devoured by Slaanesh. Supahbadmarine 16:58, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Here the deal. The craftworld is a big steaming wreak. The craftworld was doomed to crashland on the planet, kill all of the Eldar. However, out of sheer luck, the Xai'athi appeared to study the ruins. The Eldar, with little hope for another option, siezed the Xai'athi ships, and since there no where else to go, and no food, the Eldar to go to Nyumbani. They outnumbered Xai'athi military forces, and couldn't sneak past the Xai'athi. The craftworld was gone, a smoldering in high orbit. Vivaporius 17:10, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

They still would not have been enslaved. Furhtermore taking Eldar slaves would have weakened the Federation anyway. Just have it so that they destroy the Eldar. Is that so hard? Supahbadmarine 17:13, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Long story short, Infinity Circuit, gone. Farseers, gone. Any chances for survival, gone when Infinity Circuit whent boom. The Eldar saw Nyumbani as way out. If they going to die, it was going to be the result of trying to build a new home. Vivaporius 17:17, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, even if you took them as slaves it would only hurt the Federation. Supahbadmarine 17:18, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

No way to enslave them, huh? Slave chips, brainwashing, raising a their kids into believeing they were doing their duty for their "protectors"? Will any of those work? Vivaporius 17:21, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately no. Allow me to explain. Eldar make for poor slaves. They do not possess the physical constitution to do strenuous work for as long as humans do. Secondly, the Eldar are superior mentally than humans. They are naturally smarter than we are. They would cause infighting from within the Federation and then start an uprising. They would quickly learn how to use Xai'athi tech as it is quaint compared to their own. You might say that you can keep them dumbed down in order to stop this, but that would be even worse. Robbing the Eldar of the Eldar Path, which is their method of bettering themselves and maintaining mental discipline is worse than having educatd Eldar slaves. Eldar are capable of emotions so strong that human emotions are just pale imitations. Without the Eldar path the slaves would slowly become like the Dark Eldar. Worse, with a lack of mental discipline, and the Eldar's massive psychic potential it would invite Chaos corruption. The Eldar would then corrupt their masters, which would cause a Chaos uprising resulting in a schism that would be proportional to the Horus heresy. You see the problems? Supahbadmarine 17:28, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I'm just gonna throw this out there, massive genetic, mental, and phsyical alterations. Several implants to supress emotions, a bereau created to handle Eldar slaves, and rigorous training to subdue hostile intentions, with a kill switch to handle unruling Eldar. Vivaporius-

A few things. You can't take out an Eldar's Psychic potential. It has more or less become a large part of their genetics. Secondly, if the Eldar devestated the Xai'athi as much as you claim that they did, then why would the Xai'athi want to keep them alive. If somebody screwed me up that bad, i want wipe them out to the last. Also, all of these alterations and new agencies would be a massive drain on Federation resources. At a time whjere they are this weakened I doubt that they would spare such resources. Finally, I don't understand why you are making suh a big deal out of this. Are these slaves going to become an integral part of the Federations fluff? I doubt. Why come up with so many explainations and fight so hard for something that is more or less expendable background. You could fix all of this just by having them wipe out the Eldar. Supahbadmarine 17:55, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Xai'athi aren't homicidle. They had holding designed for the Eldar, and resources to spare. I like to Eldar, and want them in Solaris. However, their a bit too fascist for my taste, with the whole being superior and all. The Eldar, though powerful, are used as weapons, and conditioned to have the upmost loyalty to the Federation. Basically a large slave army. Provides a good plot device. Vivaporius 18:06, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I know Sniper, just trying to think of a way to incorporate the space elves into the Federation. Vivaporius-

I still don't think it would work. While I am at it I feel that I have to point out a few more things. This is the Xai'athi's first encounter with the Eldar, is that correct? If so there is no way they would no enough about the Eldar to realize the problems keeping them could generate. Furhtermore they would certainly have no iudea about Chaos at this stage. Furhtermore, not many people Realize this, but Craftworlds are not capable of FTL travel. They would not be able to follow the Xai'athi during their Exodus, so the Craftworld would have had to be in the asystem long before the Xai'athi had arrived. Supahbadmarine 18:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I kidda noticed that part, so I placed them in the system. In a way the Eldar saved the Xai'athi. The Xai'athi retrieved knowledge of Eldar culture from their captured leader. The Xai'athi provided the Paths for the Eldar that would help both sides. The first hundred years were difficult, both work on both sides helped assimilate the Eldar into Solaris. Vivaporius 18:22, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Xai'athi raised the Eldar in isolated facilities controlled by the Bureau. These same Eldar where given a specfic path determined by the Bureau. The Eldar are usually used as Akili agents or by the Bureau to hunt rogue Eldar. Vivaporius 18:29, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

New Section
Open a demonic rift into the universe now? No kidda? Fine. I'll just incorporate them as "citizens of the Federation". Stupid space elves. Vivaporius 18:47, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

You should also consider the possibility of the Nanites becoming fully self aware as the Iron Men did, and then rebelling. Also, Chaos is able to corrupt AI more readily than organic beings so the X'aithi would be great potential targets for the Ruinous Powers. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 20:54, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

The nanites aren't AI. Their mechines directly controlled by the host. Also, the Xai'athi have been developing ways to protect themselves from Chaos. Vivaporius 21:19, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay then, but their is still a chance of them becoming self aware. You could probably have a great story line based on a rogue mad Xai'athi who engineers his Nanites to become fully sentient or something along those lines. Also, in regards to chaos: If the Xai'athi have Psykers then their race will be susceptible to the Ruinous Powers no matter what (as the Eldar, Humans etc. can be corrupted even with precautions being put in place). However, if they have no Psykers what so ever then you could make them almost soulless like the Tau, hence they would be naturally resistant to the corrupting force of Chaos. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 22:33, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yes! I love that idea. On the souless part, my Vashti and Iconian races are Blanks. Vivaporius 23:27, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

Cool, cool. But first sort out the size of the Empire. About 100-300 systems would be a large enough but not too large an Empire for an advanced race. On the subject of Chaos it is reasonable to have two breeds as Blanks. However, the others would still be in danger of daemonic possession. In fact, you could expand on my idea of a rogue Xai'athi making sentient AI and develop it into a whole breed going rogue after being drawn to Chaos. It would also explain why they are so cautious about the Ruinous Powers if some of their own kind fell to them. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 23:46, April 21, 2011 (UTC)

I want to stick to the size of the Federation. They've colonized most of the habitable planets in the region, and built the rest. Only 500 of the 2,500 systems are real. The other 2,000 were built by the Xai'athi, or are empty and home to massive fleets of colony ships. I also coming up with a rogue faction of Xai'athi that followed the scienist into ruin. Thanks for the idea. Vivaporius 02:20, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

This page is slowly improving but there are still many more areas to work on that we have discussed already in this article... im kinda sick of this article, these arguments and the lack of reasoning on your part even though you have had multiple people telling you the same thing... I will come back to this article in roughly 2 weeks when it gives me less of a headache, and attempt to help you fix it then if necessary --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 13:11, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

I'll see you in two weeks then. Back to business. Now for fewer planets. The Feds only have 300 planets. But have 2,200 systems which are empty (single star systems), or home to large stations and fleets. Don't know if this is appropriate, but think Deep Space 9. Vivaporius 13:40, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

New Section
Well I tried. The Federation has only 300 systems. No more, no less. As for to rogue AI, now I have perfect excuse for a Tzeentch cult. BTW, the Vashti are similar to the Sisters of Silence, psykers without a presense in the Warp. Everyone save for the Awali, Nekomono, and Nexusians, are soulless. Vivaporius 18:58, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Fury told me about the Ohnyl Cylinders. I forgot about those. I was thinking that Solaris could be the result of these colony ships, and founded on a lost colony south of Segmentum Pacificus in M8. The Federation would have developed another form of travel by then with the help of nanites which boosted their brainpower, and have spread about further than the intial planets they had, but lost all but the 300 mentioned during the Great Crusade. Far more advanced the Imperium and Tau, larger than the Tau Empire, held on to their old cultures, and had contact with the Eldar long before the Imperium. Also, on the matter of the Eldar, I was thinking about a war between the two that lasted for millienia, and some of the Eldar captured. This would lead to the Xai'athi screwing their genetic to the point that theu create a different breed of Eldar. They turn this peticular group of Eldar into slaves much the sevitors, but had the occasional rogue that whent loose, thus lead to the creation of the Bureau, whos job was the keep the slaves in line and hunt down rogues, like the Inquisition for psykers. This would give the Federation an enemy like the Imperium's heretics, the Ork's grecthins, and the Eldar and Dark Eldar. Think it will work? Vivaporius 20:26, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

Cant help myself... give it a shot... it will all depend on the way you put it all together... if ud like some advice, in order to keep their numbers at the level it is now write into it some great incursion that almost destroyed them... Orks or Daemons maybe... it will make for a damned good article and make a lot of things possible that werent before... but like i said, depends on how u write it --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 05:19, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

I came up with a timeline. The Xai'athi got into a war with the Orks and the Eldar in M10, and give up most of their worlds during the Great Crusade upon learning the extent of the Astronomicon. They also suffered from two Eldar rebellions. More on that subject will be discussed later. Vivaporius 07:26, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Eldar empire still around at M10? If that were the case, then there is no way the Federation could even fight them. Supahbadmarine 07:28, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

I think that the Fall of the Eldar was around M29. Regards, TardirProductions 07:38, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Fury said to come up with some way to keep their numbers low. Also, the war lasted 2,000 years. The creator's wife was an Eldar farseer who gave insight into Eldar tatics, along with the Eldar who fought on the Xai'athi. Some Eldar were captured during the war, experimented on, and the Eldar slave breed created. This factors barely saved the Xai'athi. Vivaporius 07:46, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

I can't see if that is CF or not. Regards, TardirProductions 07:53, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Also, earlier on around the time the colony, in M4 not M8, an Eldar craftworld help guide and develop the colony. Some Eldar even moved in with the colonists. This lead to the first great technological leap. A world war knocks them back into a feral state, but the Xai'athi creator saves most of the knowledge and rebuilds society the way he want it to be. Vivaporius 07:53, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

The war took place far were humanity and the Eldar were located. I thought of any reasons behind the war. I'm still working on the Eldar deal too.Vivaporius 07:57, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Still not sure if it's CF or not. You must have someone else look at it. Regards, TardirProductions 08:01, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

I'm thinking of a special breed of soldier the Xai'athi created by harvesting Eldar genetic materials, that would be used in the creation process. They could be the equivelent of Space Marines. Could help who the Xai'athi won so many battles withe Eldar near the war's end. Any thoughts? Vivaporius 08:09, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Orks then maybe? Massive Waaagh! that almost takes out the Federation? Vivaporius 08:13, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

There is no way the Xai'athi could have taken on the Eldar before the fall even with an Eldar ally. They made the Imperium look like infants. Supahbadmarine 08:25, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Hence the Ork Waaagh!!! instead. Vivaporius 08:38, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

If you want a war prior to M30 it will most likely have to be Orks... the craftworlds were constructed in M29 so a war with the eldar would need to happen after that, fighting off an Ork Waaagh is more interesting than a war with Eldar anyway --color="#001457">War within, War without, War unending 10:16, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

An Ork Waaagh! would be better to fight than the Eldar at that point. In M8 the Eldar Empire spanned all of what is now the Eye of Terror and many planets beyond this realm (ie. Exodite/Maiden Worlds). They did not openly concern themselves with the affairs of the lesser races unless they were somehow a threat to their Empire. It is very unlikely that these Xai'athi would be deemed a threat due to their distance from the Eldar Empire and their comparatively primitive level of technology. At this point the Eldar Empire was the sole most powerful force in the Galaxy as all the Eldar were united (unlike in M41 where the views of one Craftworld can be radically different from another) so they would not lose any conflict they found themselves engaged in. And as note: the first Craftworlds were launched a couple of hundred years before the fall (by eldar who listened to the Slann warning), with the last being put into operation as the Birth of Slaanesh occured. A Shadow Before the Dawn My Talk 11:03, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Great, now we've got that out of the way, I can get to business. Vivaporius 14:01, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

How am I doing so far? Vivaporius 03:12, April 25, 2011 (UTC)